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It's the economy, stupid...

Simcountry: Simcountry Bulletin Board  It's the economy, stupid...

La Republica del Mertana

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 08:42 pm Click here to edit this post
The corp is Cristy Paper.

I know that data are updated very slow but still it reads 5.5B in cash.
Itís the same thing with all the newly started corps.
There are other odd things going on.
An other odd thing is when you terminate a company what happens with its cash and inventory. The loans are promptly transferred to the state. Where in the world will a government pay for a all debts of a bankrupt company?

Rugnar

Hymyland V

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:04 pm Click here to edit this post
It's just another kludge in the game that protects lenders from risk. The person controlling the corp, pays off the debt when it closes, because their is no concept of loan risk in the game.

La Republica del Mertana

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:24 pm Click here to edit this post
Yes I have noticed that the lenders are taking no risks what so ever. My first country was made unplayable with that auto closing of corps with heavy loans. I couldnít first understand why the countryís debt was raising.

Also this is why I donít want a CEO in the country at the start.

I have also tried the CEO part and terminated that enterprise with 100:s of billions in loan.

I wonder who had to pay for that? Hehe

Rugnar
President of the now healthy La Republica del Mertana
CEO of the newly started Geer AB

Hymyland V

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:59 pm Click here to edit this post
The enterprise continued on in your absence, run by the computer.

Erehwon

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:59 pm Click here to edit this post
Yup, there's your 20B loan. Thought so. Your company went into the red to buy factors of production. BTW, you need to upgrade.

About loans and lenders, that is indeed one of the strange economic parts of the game. I wrote a suggestion about loans involving risk a little while back in the Suggestion thread, but I don't think anyone looked at anything so boring as a note on Lending when there was a major war in the offing!

Erehwon

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:04 pm Click here to edit this post
Here's the old (November 11) note about loans, call it Economic Suggestion #9:

It would be interesting to make loans into a two- or three-tiered system. While I know that real countries don't earn interest on loans the way it is played in SC, perhaps the following would serve to add an element of risk and reward while allowing savings to add an element of profit that compensates for high savings rates.

All cash on hand in a country would earn interest at a very low rate, perhaps just 1% or 2%. Loans actually made would earn 3% or 4% if made to countries and 5% or 6% if made to corporations.

If a country is conquered, then the conquerer would have the right to take on or repudiate all loans, with repudiated loans disappearing and a significant penalty being given to the conquering empire (reduced score? increased rebel attacks on corps? decreased welfare? inability to build corps? or take loans? or some combination or other penalty). Loans made to corporations that are destroyed or go bankrupt would disappear (hence the higher interest rate on such loans).

Jozi

Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 09:45 pm Click here to edit this post
WOW, I was not here for two days and there are a lot of suggestions. Some are easy, some very good some mean a lot of work.
I will take them into account and may introduce some little improvements short term.

Other comments:

Market interventions are taking place just to prevent collaps. We have tested it on the new system before we moved GR for several days and the market collapsed.

The flexibility of the market is limited. Corporations that are not selling should reduce production and hiring fast. That will free workers for more new corporations that will produce what the market needs.
Currently, the hiring remains too high.

Loans have never been what we wanted them to be.
It is not a real market like the product market is. The movements in the market are limited and loans are indeed safe.

We want to introduce a real money market with a risk factor attached to each corporation and country. That will be a major factor in the interest rate and with high risk factor, loans may be lost if the corporation bankrupts and a country not paying back will be punished with high interest etc.

Interest in the game can go higher but currently we have money surplus in GR and the rates are down to the lowest rate.

Leaving products on the market for a longer period is many times unrealistic. Food for 12 months? introducing a period per product is complex. These products are in oversupply and should be discarded or go for a low price.

Removing them from the market queue is also an issue.

Good suggestions for improving the user interface, I will try find someone free to put it in.

Jozi

Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 09:56 pm Click here to edit this post
Good suggestions on the purchasing strategies.
They are not so easy to build in, mainly the trading becomes much more complex. We need to find out whether it can be done without changing the way the trading itself is done.

Tax holliday is a good idea as it will remove the initial rounding problems and large tax payments in the first period but it will not create a lasting advantage.

User setting of purchasing quantities will be very nice as it will allow minimizing stocks of some materials. The issue of course is the increasing number of orders and performance.
We will add functionality to the game and need to watch performance before we introduce such a function.

Erehwon

Monday, December 22, 2003 - 11:16 pm Click here to edit this post
Thanks, Jozi!

I want to keep talking about the automatic cut price sale of items left on the market for six months... I understand your logic but don't find myself entirely in agreement. I'd like to explain why.

The age of products is not truly important. In the real world, many of the products we consume, durable and non-durable, are many months old. But what about food some may ask, like Milk or Eggs or Butter? Well, I hate to disabuse folks, but unless you know where you are getting your eggs from, the chickens that hatch them may be long dead by the time they hit the supermarket shelf. Milk: much of the world drinks long-life or powdered milk, and butter... well that can be warehoused for years. Here is the odd thing: Among all the products bought and sold in the game, the ONLY ones I see at first glance that are not capable of being stored are things like Services (because it is labour hours we are really talking about) and air transport; things like that. Food is All storable. If you want to insist that milk and meat and fruit are Fresh products in all cases, then I suggest you make only THOSE products subject to the automatic price cut and at the same time significantly increase their "normal" price and profit margin. This will more accurately simulate the boom/bust cycle of fresh products with their large price swings and bouts of (French) farmers pouring their milk down the avenues.

The six-month price threshold causes 3C corps to take a beating and results in more radical swings in product availability and price than are necessary.

Last, the after-six-months price cut results in unrealistic gaming of the market for purchase of military equipment and ammo. What players do, including myself, is to place large orders for military goods at minimal prices. The orders sit on the market for a while and are eventually met by a corp dumping products at silly prices. The damnable thing about it is that by placing huge orders at bottom prices, players cause the product to go into deficit on the market. This causes 3Cs to build more corps to meet demand, it pushes prices up and the 3C and player corps selling the product place the product on the market at higher prices where IT DOES NOT SELL, and then after six months is dropped into the laps of the players gaming the market at cut-rate prices. The game's market interventions only make this artificial strategy more successfl when the "artificial" deficit causes an intervention to take place. Some players are going to hate me posting this here for all to see, but I don't like this aspect of the game and would like to see it closed for all (including me, and I'm a major manipulator of the market).

So, here are my suggestions:

1. Get rid of the six-month threshold for cutting prices. Let the market decide.

2. If you wish to keep the six-month threshold, only use it for certain products that you deem to be "fresh," but at the same time increase prices for those goods to reflect the risky and time-sensitive nature of the products.

3. Add a market rule that causes all player market orders to go "Immediate" after a certain period of time, say 3 months. Players can still try to "game" the market, but if they want to take the time to do it, then they will also have to take the time to check their orders and cancel them if they don't wish to see the orders go "immediate."

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