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Keith (SADDAM HUSSIEN) Fairbanks (Golden Rainbow)

Simcountry: Simcountry Bulletin Board  Keith (SADDAM HUSSIEN) Fairbanks (Golden Rainbow)

Matt Crouch (Fearless Blue)

Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 05:56 am Click here to edit this post
http://jinson.ath.cx:8080/sc/news/index.php?catid=10

reading material. contains hard data elle might find interesting, if she cares.

Im banning myself permanently from the boards; I will only post guides/FAQs from now on , if at all. I wont read stuff, and wont bother you. PM me if you have anything to say to me, otherwise say whatever you want on the BB.

Now that thats out of the way:
1. red{The AF members...for many in the 12M (not all) there was an awfull lot less to lose.}

That passage seems to say several things, each of which I disagree with completely.

Firstly, that the 12M countries were poor economically, at least compared to their superior GR counterparts.

Check the current #1 country. it is not an accident. At the time my main country had the thrid highest GDP in the game, behind only 2 of Genies countries, both of which had smaller proportional armies. I believe 3 of my other countries were in the top ten. The actual industrial profit was at least comparable those in the AF. Many of them had considerable assets as well, when i moved abyss to GR it had 230T in cash, which was quite a bit in those days even if it is chump change now.

Suomenmas's country was a 1T/month industrial income country. All of mattys countries made a few hundred billion in cash. And Robs countries were more or less the economic equal of your own countries elle, I did the math-he simply had slightly larger armies. Eskon, Ciaran, jackle, and every single other member had strong economies as well. They could not have had armies otherwise.
At the very least they were comparable the best anywhere else.

Your passage is nothing more than a not-so-subtle insult at the playing skills of the people involved (worse insults come later...). Since most of them are not around to defend themselves, or bring up ye olde GDP data, I feel compelled to do it for them

2.for many in the 12M (not all) there was not an awfull lot less to lose...a player with countries a couple of months old, designed purely to play war with is going to be 'bolder' than a player with 4 or 5 countries all developed over a very long time indeed (years in some cases)

That also is complete bullshit (I really am sorry :(...but have to call a spade a spade).

First - a player losing their empire is a player losing their empire. Nothing more nothing less. A poor 'newb' who has a one month old empire with 2T assets has EXACTLY as much to lose as , say, Cyriac on GR atm in his peaceful 1.2 Quadrillion country which is a few years old. Both of them lose their empire. Who are you to say that because your country has more imaginary cash than mine does, has a higher score, or has been around a bit longer, that it is worth more??! Maybe it means a lot more to me than yours does to you, for all you know. Preposterous! That same kind of arrogance and superior attitude is what I was trying to talk about earlier...

Now even pretending that I agreed with that kind of measurement, then its still bullshit.

Lets see, I think I registered april 1 2002, which means my country would have been about 1 and 3/4 years old when I moved it. GR wasnt that old, it wasnt started until the summer of 2002; therefore no countries that had already been on GR could have been older than mine even if they were registered there the day GR opened. Other imports could have been, but well get to that in a moment ;)
Suos countries were older than mine, as far as I know (I dont know exactly, but he was around when I started). Eskon and matty were both around year old. Eskon , matty, suo, rob, jackle, and myself all had empires quite a lot older than your GR empire elle, and some of us were older than GR.

The difference was that the 12M players were willing to risk those countries. This did not mean they cared about them less, it meant that they cared about their goals and their fedmates more-so much that they cared about them more than their own selfish, short term interest.
That is how a federation is SUPPOSED to work.

I find it amusing for henry to talk about this subject, since I recall a very emotional post on hiw part, as he quit the game, condemning his allies for not helping him one bit. Easy to have memory lapses when you become peaceful...eh henry? :)

3.Suddenly many players discovered their forces were weaker...lot less usefull.

Translation: Suddenly, players who hadnt bothered to read the game documentation for weapons realized that the empires they were confident were completely invulnerable to any challenge -military or economic-realized that there might, just possibly be some BARELY conceivable circumstance in which they COULD be threatened!This scared them shitless and drove them to "whinge" to jozi in droves.

Also you make said planning sound like a shady, semi-cheating type of behavior. The game documentaion was open, the weapons were available to use and understand, just like any other weapon. They worked exactly as they were described to work -unlike much of the game-and so couldnt possibly be interepreted as a mistake.

Short Range missle batteries, on the other hand, are listed as having a range of only 200km. Does using them to kill nuke batteries 6000km away, which many new players decide MUST be some kind of mistake, since its contrary to the game description sound just as shady to you? Is planning to use them this way in a war equally shady?

I doubt youd think so.

There were no huge ceo stockpiles of any of these weapons. In fact there were no huge CEO stockpiles at all on our side, they were all owned by the 'established' presidents who had had decades to build them. We destroyed as many as we could, bought as many of the rest as was possible-I think we got around 70% of what erehwon had, it was the wars opening salvo.

Stockpiles were barely used in the conflict on both sides as far as I could tell, and I think I had the best overall picture of what was going on. The few that were used mostly came from faith, and I suppose a few might have come from yourself -people who had protected stockpiles in countries.

12M were fighting on a completely different scale ...no members could touch the 12m 'mainland' anyway.

Why not turn it around:

"The Erewhon PAC federation was defending in numbers which people had not seen before! hundreds of thousands of aircraft, it was insane! All presidents who looked upon such defenses were depressed, scared, and plain bummed out."

re. Stockpiles, See above.

And...My countries had an easy time supporting my army, thank you very much. At the time I think my pre-loan income in avalon was around 1.2T, of which I spent 200B on the army (i was trying to spend more, but it was hard). The contracts I had and which i offered were for current production.

Only one country received massive numbers of contracts (from our side), all of them were for the current months production only... and it was still making a profit through most of the war.

again, youre trying to make it sound as though we souped up a bunch of crappy, thrid rate countries and whipped them into a frenzy.

In reality we attacked using countries game years old which had all been the centers of large empires, and had stockpiled ammo for ages. All of these countries were very well developed in every way, and some of them were far superior to anything you had elle...all respect intended.

No one , not *almost* no one, could touch the 12M mainland. That was half of the point. sigh.

When anyobody is literally invincible than it seems obvious that something is deeply wrong.

Regarding attacking in larger numbers....well obviously that was necessary wasnt it? how else could anyone on GR be defeated ? By using smaller numbers to counter their massively larger defensive forces ? (of course they couldnt anyway, I know, but even a plausible attempt required massive scales)

What you wanted, what you always wanted, was invincibility from any attack.

blasting away with nothing but strat bombers (stocked in huge quantities by 12M )

lets see here rob-how many did you have, total, in your empire? I had about 3000. How many did I use? 0.
I think rob+me+suo+eskon had a good number more strat bombers than the entire rest of the world combined. They were not stockpiled with any knowldege of the issues regarding them; I stockpiled mine because they were the cheapest way to take c3s (when I bought them they were a lot cheaper....like 1/100 the current price)

We didnt use them. You try to make us sound like violent bug abusers; while there was ONE member who did use them briefly, combo attacks and strat bombers were used on us at least 10 times as often. mattys main country was dragged down to a war index of 2 using them, and a good dozen other countries were bombed as well. Instead of implying that we were dirty no good rotten scoundrels you should be recalling that we had a huge technical advantage, and chose not to use it for moral reasons...despite having the same thing used against us (Scorpion, TURAN)

and watched them die for the cost of a few RDU

The losses sustained by the attackers were ~8 times yours in manpower and money. Just a friendly reminder, it was much MUCh harder for us than it was for you.
Now think back how hard it was for you and imagine what it was like for us.

I think it took about 100k RDU lost before the fed defense started to take any signifcant losses. After that it was about an even trade in manpower/money lost. AFTER that.

4. The speed with which 12M appeared was not gradual...jozi turning a blind eye to ....'conquering themselves'... jozi didnt take action so it was within the rules presumeably.

That must be a joke. at least I hope it is, because its funny as hell.

Again you COMPLETELY ignore anything that your buddies did, and take the same thing, done on a smaller scale by other people, and make it sound evil.

Where do you think kodiak -the country-came from? or the 12 countries he imported? what about Asgard,/ stardust? what about scorpions empire? What about TURANs main countries? what about HOG? what about faith? Jinson?

If you add up the countries, as well as the countries moved per player, all of these people far exceeded anything we did. You critize the move, and imply that it was cheating of some kind (or at least really shady), without even mentioning that nearly every single one of your friends and allies did the same thing, only more of it.

Even ignoring that part of it, the only way pretty much any of us could move to GR was the way we did it. Rob had already found that out. if we have started on GR we would either have been instantly annihlated by the combined force of the planet, or we would have been forced to become slaves...UNLESS we did exactly as we did do: all move at once, to the same spot, as fast and big as possible. There was no other choice.

if youre going to apply a standard, apply it equally to all: otherwise you are doing nothing more than voicing an emptional bias.

5.12M had one goal only, world conquest.

As the ex-leader and designer of the 12M, and the one who designed its goals, I think I am better entitled to tell you what the goal of the 12M was than you are to tell ME what OUR goal was.

It was not world conquest.A rational plan for world conquest would be not to make any serious waves until secure poewr had been established, manipulate events poltically, and slowly absorb the weakest and most inactive members of the world periphery until ones power had grown unstoppable.

(*cough*FAITH)

We did the exact opposite-arriving in the SC equivalent of a fanfare of trumpets, and attacking the biggest, strongest empires, while offering peace to every single weaker player- often after decminating their armies(they had declared war on us, not vice versa...check the TNN links!) and demonstrating that we could conquer them if we wanted to (touris? treboria?)

If conquest had been the goal, things would have been very different indeed. But 'world domination' for the 12M would have been utterly uselss. Goddamn it. Everyone who seems to have understood this has quit.

Note that not even one country which wasnt an insignificant crappy slave was conquered by the 12M in that war. let me restate that:

In the largest, longest planned, best planned (if I do say so myself ;) ) war in SC, not a single 'real' country was lost.

Clearly the only valid conclusion is that we were all rotten scoundrels using overpowered weapons.

I thought you knew better than that elle. Especially remembering our various messages, and what happened with treboria and touris.

ANYWAY
All of this talk achieves little at best and is probably a waste of time.

What is important is creating -rather NOT creating- stupid/shitty/boring/imbalanced situations in the future. Everyone loses in the long run except, sort of, the kleptomaniacal multies. And even they lose in the long run, whether they admit it (or know it) or not.

The reason this discussion is relevant is that it sucks to see people make the same mistakes Over...and Over...and OVER again, with the result being that SC never ever becomes what it should be.

Gr is fooked elle. If you register there, 3 months from now you will quit and admit that it was a waste of your time. Dont put yourself through it.

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