in east Jerusalem (called Jabal Abu Ghneim by the Palestinians and Har Homa by Israel), as well as all the other Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories 3/21/1997 Vetoed 13-1 (US),1
Call for UN Observers Force in West Bank, Gaza 3/27/2001 Vetoed 9-1 (US), with four abstentions (Britain, France, Ireland and Norway) Condemned acts of terror, demanded an end to violence and the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to bring in observers. 12/14/2001 Vetoed 12-1 (US) with two abstentions (Britain and Norway)
On the killing by Israeli forces of several UN employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse 12/19/2002 12-1 (US) with two abstentions (Bulgaria and Cameroon)
Demand that Israel halt threats to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat 9/16/03 Vetoed 11-1 (US) with three abstentions (Britain, Germany and Bulgaria) Seeks to bar Israel from extending security fence 10/14/03 Vetoed 10-1 (US) with four absentations (Britain, Germany, Bulgaria and Cameroon) Condemns Israel for killing Ahmed Yassin 3/25/04 Vetoed 11-1 (US) with three absentations (Britain, Germany, Romania) Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 10/05/04 Vetoed 11-1 (US) with three absentations (Britain, Germany, Romania) Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 7/13/06 Vetoed 10-1 (US) with four absentations (Britain, Peru, Denmark and Slovakia) Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 11/11/06 Vetoed 10-1 (US) with four absentations (Britain, Denmark, Japan and Slovakia)
Almohad117 (White Giant) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 09:36 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice post, nix.
And so Farmer Bob disappears over the horizon, in a blaze of moral certitude and self-righteousness that is visible from space.
Well, maybe now we'll find someone who's willing to look at what's actually going on, and not accuse anyone who disagrees with him of being a moral troglodyte.
Or put words in their mouth - apparently I believe "Israel is evil incarnate" - If I got to distort what my opponent says I guess I'd win every argument too!
To tell the truth I was getting a little tired of repeating myself too. It was stupid of me to expect much from this discussion. I have to remember this is the Internet, and for every person who's capable of intelligent discussion there are 10,000 Sams.
Or others who aren't Sams but refuse to use their intelligence.
Almohad117 (White Giant) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 10:29 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Farmer Bob's vision: All the Hamas fighters in Gaza throw down their weapons. Everyone who lives in Gaza, from the week-old baby in its mother's arms to the 98-year-old farmer, gets up and walks out into the street. In their hundreds of thousands, the crowds join together, swelling into a mass one and a half million strong. Together they march out of Gaza, simply surging past the Israeli checkpoints, under the eyes of the stunned Israeli soldiers, beneath the barrels of the massed Merkavas. The Apaches, hovering overhead, hold their fire. Surrounding the Israeli troops but not lifting a finger to harm them, the massed Palestinians simply sit down where they are. Apart from the crackle of radios as confused Israeli commanders plead for instructions, and the whump-whump-whump of the helicopters, the only sound is the whirring of cameras relaying the amazing images around the world.
I think that's something along the lines of what Farmer Bob has in mind. And it's a stunning, intoxicating prospect, I have to admit. If it ever happened I think Israel would indeed find that it had to deal fairly with the Palestinian question.
I think a lot of Palestinians would die in the process, however - at least at the beginning. But, leaving aside the question of likelihood or practicality, I part company with Farmer Bob for two reasons:
A) I won't insist that this is the only means the Palestinians have to solve their problem (or tell them their problems are their own damn fault if they choose a different course of action); and
B) I don't consider them "as bad as Israel" because they attempt to ward off the Israeli attacks, or try to retaliate as best they can.
Almohad117 (White Giant) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 10:41 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and another thing...
I think that the conflict is very much a battle of hearts and minds, which in turn is a battle for information. The situation is badly misunderstood in "the West" because the media by and large present the Israeli view. I think if enough people in the US, and elsewhere, really understood how willing the Palestinians have been to negotiate before, let alone what a dire situation they're in, and - in the case of the US - how their tax dollars are being used by the Israeli forces, there would be a lot more pressure on Israel to get real about talking to the Palestinians. Misconceptions rule, and no that is not by mistake and no, that is not a goddam conspiracy theory.
So I believe that what Farmer B calls "pointless squabbling" is actually anything but. Granted this forum is probably the most idiotic and useless place for it, but hey, you fight the fights that come your way.
nix001 (Fearless Blue) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 10:48 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nicely put and well fought Unlike our own government. How many abstentions?
And so the indiscriminate killing goes on. Even UN aid workers and medics seem to be targets. I hope the American people soon understand just how involved their governments over the years have been in preparing the ground for this genocide. Without their vetoes there might be peace in the Middle East.
Váli (Fearless Blue) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 11:02 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems Israeli is getting the job done. Lack of fighting seems to suggest some of those 'civilian' casualities were actually Hamas fighters. Afterall they dont walk around in uniform. It will be interesting how fast this ceasefire proposal develops, with it already been agreed in priciple. If my above assumption is even slightly correct and Hamas has taken a beating peace might not be too far away. Then again they may have all been civilians and Hamas is just waiting for the Israelis to go home before resuming the party. It was interesting to see Israeli soldiers praying on operations...2 religious forces fighting it out....maybe peace is not so near.... People often consider isreal to be 'western' but maybe their religious zeal makes them less western than you might think. More ramblings from me!
John R Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 11:08 pm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: If you two don't look back tomorrow at what you have just wrote and wish that you had'nt...........well, what hope is there?
I regret nothing. Prepare and embrace for impact. Here comes the apocalypse!
Váli (Fearless Blue) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 11:17 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well one thing to come out of this war is an increase in the hate directed at Israel and by default the US. I have seen many young people of middle eastern heritage sitting watching video after video of the war in gaza. All speaking bad of the Israel and the west. Facebook oh what joy terrosists around the world must find in facebook. Propaganda spread across the world and excepted blindly. If it fits your preconcieved views of the injustice of it all then it must be correct. Brace yourself for the fallout. I think it might be raining suicide bombers.
The Grand Poobah Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 11:52 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The war is dumb. Isreal's Dumb. Palistine is Dumb. The U.S. is dumb. It's just so Freakin Dumb. Why is it needed? They don't even know why their fighting anymore.
1st misconception- "Isreal is victims". The only victims are the innocents who die.
2nd- Iran wants to nuke Isreal. That is just dumb. They wouldn't nuke the holliest ground on earth.
3rd- Peace is impossible. Peace is never impossible. This is nothing more than a misguided Cock and Balls contest.
4th- Kids are dieing. And everyone is pointing the finger. Both sides are guilty and it is time to be responsible. if not, I say lets Glass the entire region. Problem solved.
Johanas Bilderburg (Little Upsilon) Thursday, January 8, 2009 - 11:52 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- America has seen plenty about Palestine.
We saw hijackings in the 70's Kidnappings in the 80's Suicide bombings in the 90's
And we saw the Arab hags dancing in the streets and clucking like chickens after 9/11.
All I really needed to see.
Why help the people who hate us?
Why waste my tax dollars on my enemies?
I won't dance in the streets because they are dying. But I wont shed a tear for them.
If Israel needs more of my tax dollars to knock those angry little asshats down...
I consider it a sound investment.
And it really pisses Left Wingers off.
Its win-win in my book.
Almohad117 (White Giant) Friday, January 9, 2009 - 12:06 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think odds are very good there's going to be an increase in terrorism around the world, and especially in Israel. Hamas has held off suicide bombing for a couple of years but Gaza could well have put an end to that.
I doubt any falloff in fighting means Israel has killed off enough Hamas fighters to turn the tide. For one thing, I bet for every Hamas fighter they've killed, the horror they've inflicted on so many innocents is going to bring that organization way more recruits.
From what we're allowed to see and understand of the operation, so far it looks to me as if Israel has surrounded and cut off the really dense urban areas for the most part, without going into them. Israel has always been really wary of taking heavy casualties, and I think they know that once they go into a Hamas area they'll start taking more losses. Not that they couldn't prevail ultimately - but it wouldn't be easy. It's hard to imagine many forms of conflict that are as difficult and brutal as urban fighting - and I bet it would tend to nullify Israel's advantage in weapons to some degree.
nix001 (Kebir Blue) Friday, January 9, 2009 - 12:17 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JB. Have you ever wondered why they hate the USA? Lets think about that one. The USA helped the Zionist to destroy the agreement between Britain, the Arabs and the Jews in the 40's. The USA supported the Zionist terrorists in the 50's. The USA veto the worlds wishes to create peace (I advise any new comers to this thread to scroll up and read the US veto post) The USA threaten anyone they don't agree with you with war.
Why can't the USA just stay out of it and let the rest of the world sort it out?
